1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10

Interview with Reverend Doctor Walt Dilg Senior Pastor at First United Methodist Church, Ventura, California, March 30, 2006.

Walt was kind enough to take a moment out of his busy day on Thursday afternoon to talk with me.

C: Where did you see your first labyrinth?

W: We were having a clergy retreat. Every other year the Bishop gets the clergy together for a renewal retreat, a couple days. There's different programs, different things happen, a different focus each year.
One year one of the workshop's focus was the labyrinth. A group of Sisters, I don't recall what order they were with, came with a portable labyrinth. They set it up in one of the banquet rooms. We were able to walk. That was my first experience.
It was an experience that I was told was a neat thing to do. I was positive, I was looking towards doing it with a hope. It was also for me, it was an unusual experience because it was this thing that seemed to be a private activity, though done very publicly. I was on it with ten or so other clergy walking the path at different places we would pass. That made me very conscious of the corporate nature of what I was doing yet it seemed that it was a very private thing that I was doing.
I guess those two elements are a part of it.
That was my first experience of it. I remember from that of having a sense of deeper calm. More than any insight it was a centering experience. I was centered when I was done with it. Enough so to think that this was a cool thing to do. I thought, "I'd like to figure out more about that."
One of my clergy friends, and I don't know where she got it, I was kidding with Robert that it might probably be his handiwork, she got a portable canvas labyrinth 33 feet in diameter. She bought it as an outgrowth of this experience. She decided that she wanted to be a part of this more regularly.
She bought it for herself and she used it in her church. When she went off to get her doctorate across the country, she left it with me instead of carting it across the country. That's what's right behind you in the corner there.
I've been using it probably the last 7 years at this church every holy week.

C: Finally you have a permanent labyrinth. It's interesting that you have a thread of the feminine that runs through the labyrinth here. First the nuns brought it and then a friend, a lady, a friend of your's picked that up and immediately there's that female influence again. In the Labyrinth Society we talk a lot about how it is a feminine thing to have a labyrinth. The idea that you can go there in community and you can be around other people and at the same time you can go deep within yourself, to me, that's a real feminine quality. We men tend to be more outgoing, outspoken, not so much in conflict but at least in competition. I see that in feminine communities too but at the same time...

We were interrupted at this time. His office is busy!

W: So about that feminine stuff, I hadn't really thought about that much, but it is a clear point when you talk about it.

C: When I think about geometric figures, I think about a single line as a male figure and the circle as a female symbol. You have that in its simplest form in the labyrinth. The profound states of calm, and what proceeds from that are deep insight.

The labyrinth brings me in and calms me down almost instantly. My first experience was in a 7 circuit labyrinth that I'd traced on the beach in south Florida. At that time, I'd done TM for about 20 years so I was familiar with that feeling of transcendance, of when you are "There". My eyes were open, I was walking, I'd only taken a few steps into the labyrinth and suddenly I felt myself begin to transcend. It was like, "OH! There is really something to this!"

I haven't dedicated my life to it but it has been a very strong thread in my life ever since.

(We both laugh.)

W: I see it as a good spiritual tool that way for parishoners, for everybody. That's why I thought it would be a great thing not to just bring out once a year at Holy Week. Better to have it readily available.

C: It's amazing. It's an extraordinary tool for people going through any kind of transition in life. It's immense for helping people to digest grief. It's excellent for helping people solve problems. Going by the Lauren Artress idea of just allowing the current problems to fall away as you walk into the center, staying in the center long enough to allow some insight to come, then as you are walking back out, ways to apply that insight as a solution.

W: I've had that feeling.

C: It's a really powerful technique. . .
Is there a Methodist way for walking the labyrinth?

W: No, not that I can think of.

C: Did you get any techniques? Did anyone ever teach to any techniques of how to walk a labyrinth?

W: Those Sisters in the very first walk had a handout. Subsequently, I've gone to some websites and gotten some information. I've bought some books. This may be the person you were quoting. (He shows me Lauren Artress' "Walking a Sacred Path" which was the book I was quoting. See the Veriditas website for more information.) There is some other literature I have here that makes some suggestions for focuses. I'm remembering some of the things we handed out in the very beginning of our labyrinth walks here. We tried to have a member of the Clergy always present, to give a sense of prescence as people walked, to be available if people wanted to process what they had just gone through.

We discovered that people really didn't want to process with us what they went through! They'd say, "Thank you! That was really good!", or something like that. They really didn't want to sit down and go into spiritual direction. We ended up just making sure that it was a safe space and being on campus so that if people felt that there was something else happening, they could come to us.

We didn't baby sit the program, we just went in and out and had these handouts there that gave direction of using the labyrinth as a meditative tool on a particular issue, or just practicing the presence of God as walking. I wouldn't say there is a Methodist way to doing it.
I think we're just embracing the insights that others have about it where ever they have come from.

C: That's what I like about it. It's totally non-denominational. As opposed to being a religious tool, it's a spiritual tool. It doesn't matter where a person comes from when they walk a labyrinth. In fact, one does not even need to believe in a Supreme Being. When they do walk that pattern, they can get more closely in touch with themselves. Perhaps see the miracle in their lives, perhaps see that there is something beyond logic that is happening here.

W: It can function at that pure human level as being a helpful tool to that person.

C: Yeah, as grounding. It's neat to have a proctor there, or somebody to just hold the space for the walkers and maintain a safe space so that people don't just walk out onto the labyrinth while a seeker is walking the path. I think that you are exactly right in saying that they don't need to have clergy, or a psychotherapist, or anybody there like that during the walk. I've had walks where, in the middle of the walk, I felt as though I was forced to my knees by an unseen power. Very gently. Then forced onto my hands and knees, and then wracked by sobs. Through the whole experience, I'm thinking to myself, "Boy, I'm losing it now!" (We laugh) And then after 15 or 20 seconds, or minutes, I don't know, my catharsis was over. I got up and shook myself and thought, "Wonder what that was, but I sure feel good now?" Then I finished my walk. I think, from what I've heard from my friends who walk labyrinths, many, many people have that kind of experience, where all of a sudden there is a big flood of emotion right in the middle of the walk. If people will just stay with the emotion and accept it, they come out the other side and they feel lighter.

W: Do you have a special way that you walk it that engenders that, for yourself?

C: My process is to just come to the labyrinth. I give thanks to my Creator for bringing me to this place at this time. I pray that I stay consciously connected the whole time that I am walking. Once I've said that little prayer, maybe I'll think, "Ya know? I've got a real problem with that employee." And then I'll walk in. By the time I've walked back out of the labyrinth, I know exactly how to work with the employee.

W: Do you pause at turns? Do you do various techniques?

C: The dowsers have all these things that they do. They say that there are power points at each turn. Each of those turns is a power point. In the center, there are those 6 petals at the center which have a special power within them. Lauren Artress talks about that in her "Walking a Sacred Path". Sometimes I'll just be out there.

W: You don't pay that much attention to that?

C: Sometimes I do, sometimes I do. Sometimes I'll stop at each turn. Other times I'll just walk in. I don't have too much on my mind except that my Creator has something for me. I'm there to receive a gift. Thankfully so.

W: When you have walked, have those places been much with the center? We chose to put a hole in the center thinking that we could use that for a variety of things, that we might, not just art, but maybe flowers in the center, but gifts back, the things that we want to secure there but have availble for walkers.

C: My personal preference is to have the labyrinth absolutely flat. Nuthin' stickin' up out of it. But that's my personal preference. Some people do like having a little altar, or a bronze plaque that they inserted down into the center that talks about the dedication or something like that.

I think it's brilliant to have benchs around the outside. There are times when I go and watch other people walk the labyrinth and just come to tears. You know? Just get a big experience from watching other people wend their way through the path.

I've seen one labyrinth that had like a maypole in the center, a 7 circuit labyrinth. They tried to weave in and out , it ended in chaos as so many ceremonies in labyrinths do! (Just my experience... I'm sure there are many ceremonies in labyrinths that proceed completely according to plan in a smooth and orderly fashion!)

Yeah, um, I like'm flat.

At the church I go to in Asheville, we have a labyrinth at the beginning of each season. We'll lay out a labyrinth in the Sanctuary on a Saturday morning. We walk it that Saturday then put the chairs back on top of the pattern. We have our Celebrations on Sunday morning. After the last one, we move the chairs off to the side of the pattern so the congregation can walk for the rest of the day. We'll usually leave it open for a few days that week so people can come and walk it when it is convenient to them. They come back and walk it in privacy. This is often a very powerful time for the walker.

It's a beautiful way for a small group of people to come together. It's interesting, because not the whole congregation cares! Not at all! There is probably 10% of our community that will walk the labyrinth as much as they can when there is one up. They are thirsty. Another 20 or 30% that will say, "Hey! There's a labyrinth here. I think I'll walk it!" 50 or 60% that just don't care. That's my experience of being in the community of the church. It's a real diverse grouping.

They'll show up for the Celebration. Just about everybody is interested in the Sunday lesson - being in community on Sunday. But the stuff around the outside, they just don't care that much.

W: Yeah, it's been my experience too.

C: So I can hear them working outside.

W: Feel like you should be out there helping?

C: I know there's nothing I can do out there right now. I just wanted to ask one last question. What question do you want to answer most, that I haven't asked?

W: I'm wondering about the Sacred Geometry and whether you feel that there is ... it has to do with the labyrinth being on a public space that is easy to walk across, not doing the labyrinth since it is in our courtyard. Part of what makes things Holy is our investing them with "a sense of the Sacred." You don't run around the Sanctuary, you don't do cart wheels in the Chancel, you don't lounge on theAltar. Things like that because these are Sacred Spaces. They are Sacred Spaces in and of themselves we think. They are also Sacred because we invest them with the power of that symbol. Our labyrinth being in the courtyard, we're going to have coffee on Sundays on top of it, spilling coffee perhaps, crumbs of doughnuts, things like that. During the week, as people go in and out of the building, unless somebody is walking it and they pay attention and notice, they are going to walk right across the labyrinth. The other person that is the main driver for this and myself have had quandries about that, whether that would be problematic.

We played with where the entrance should be. Thinking that that would make a difference. Robert was pretty clear that he felt the entrance should be from the front walkway, mimicking the entrance of the Sanctuary. This makes the labyrinth right in the path of who walks across it.

C: Which I think is an excellent way to invite people into the energy. Now, I come at this from a little different perspective than you do. Because my job is to create geometry that is recognizably Sacred Space. I'm very casual about entering the Sacred Space from all sides. As a result of having made these labyrinths, I've begun to see every place my path takes me as a Sacred Space. Which is very fun.

W: Yes, yes.

C: So every time I get into difficulty, I'm going, "What's the lesson here? What am I s'posed to be doing here?" So that's fun but I feel like when we layout that pattern, as soon as we've defined where that pattern's supposed to be, we've begun to create a lens. This is probably going to sound like New Age, Woo-Woo, Claptrap, but the fact is that I believe that the labyrinth is like a lense that focus' a particular type of energy that can be noticed by just about everyone. They notice a state of calm. As soon as we've defined where that labyrinth is going to go, I feel like the energy begins to flow there. I feel like it begins to come down from heaven. I feel like it comes up from earth. It comes into that space as we create the pattern. As the pattern becomes more and more clear, the energy becomes stronger and stronger. Once the pattern is physically there, because we've done it with the intention of doing it with connecting with the Creator, the energy can't be sullied. People walking across it, people going from point A to point B because they want to walk straight across the labyrinth - fine. All they want to do is get from point A to point B. People who come to the labyrinth, who have an inteniton of entering the labyrinth to find something. As that seeker is wandering, following the pattern, let's say a mother comes through with 3 or 4 children. The nature of children in the labyrinth is they get really happy and they run. That's how labyrinths work with children. Let's say this seeker is deep within themselves wending through the pattern. Here comes the family. Their intention is to get from the gate to the doorway. They go through the gate, and the children spread out through the labyrinth and run. The mother gets angry and calls the children to her. They go on inside building as she'd intended. That moment of apparent chaos in the labyrinth was something very special. It's an exclamation point for the person walking the labyrinth. When I'm walking the labyrinth, it's important for me to pay attention to anything that pops up and catches my attention. Any roughness, any interruption, any 'intrusion' is the Creator saying, "Check this out! This is just for You! This is just for you, Chuck. Everything that is happening on this walk is happening is just for you."

W: I see that stuff as dissapating.

C: I don't think it is possible to dissappate the focus, the energy. If you have a bunch of people standing around the labyrinth singing, and you have people walking the path, getting deeper and deeper. Imagine somebody comes running in and it's their intention to disrupt the ceremony. My original comment that Creator brought that to us for a specific reason still stands. The action is going to pop that bubble you created. But why? Why did it pop the bubble? To me, it's a very intentional structure. Very intentional pattern.

W: It's going to be very interesting to see how this works out. See how it plays out and how the church grows into it. How we use it, how that evolves for us by putting it into such a central place in our life.

C: I think that you'll notice that it will be really good. You will have people here walking it in the moon light, taking the opportunity to go really deeply into themselves. You will have people coming to walk it on their lunch hours as a relief from the stress and tension of their jobs. You will have marriages and all kinds of other joyous ceremonies here.

Thanks so much for investing some of your time with me today, Walt!

Reconsidering this interview a bit, I see that Walt turned the tables on me and began to interview me some...or maybe I just wanted to talk with someone outside our labyrinth construction crew circle. Whatever, you are very good company, Walt. Thanks for your time.

I hope that I can bring my wife Annette back to visit you and your church in Ventura. We'd love to walk this labyrinth together one day.

Ventura First United Methodist Church

Please visit Robert Ferre's web site Labyrinth Enterprises for complete information on how to have your own labyrinth!

John Ridder's web site Paxworks contains a wealth of labyrinth resources as well as some fine labyrinth products. He has a ton of labyrinth pictures on his photo gallery from all over the country.

See my labyrinth jewelry here!

Chuck Hunner, April 3rd, 2006